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maineman

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roadkill » 24 Jan 2023, 7:40 pm » wrote: Check yer nut-job log.  They're all leftists...just like you.
**** coward. I am done playing with you... you're like the **** tarbaby.

amf

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Selaphobia

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maineman » 24 Jan 2023, 7:48 pm » wrote: **** coward. I am done playing with you... you're like the **** tarbaby.

amf
@roadkill  trust me. this is the best thing that could happen.  :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:  

You got the legendary AMF
 

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Monderegal

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maineman

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Selaphobia » 24 Jan 2023, 7:52 pm » wrote: @roadkill  trust me. this is the best thing that could happen.  Image   Image   Image  

You got the legendary AMF
for folks who eschew actual arguments and prefer to embrace catty, substance-free insults, I really don't want to waste any of MY time or cause them to waste any of theirs.  You are just as fluffy and devoid of any modicum of seriousness here as you were/are on the dot org site.  disappointing, to be sure, but certainly not a surprise.

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roadkill

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maineman » 24 Jan 2023, 7:48 pm » wrote: **** coward. I am done playing with you... you're like the **** tarbaby.

amf

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roadkill

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Misty » 24 Jan 2023, 7:43 pm » wrote: Yes, he does.
He gets all of his info from far right fringe sources.

Every thing seems fringe to the far left like you.    



Where's my doggy...


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Xavier_Onassis

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EDC4ALL!

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maineman » 24 Jan 2023, 5:50 pm » wrote: Question:  does the declassification of a highly sensitive document magically make the contents of that document no longer sensitive and, therefore, magically incapable of causing the injury of the United States or the advantage of any other foreign nation?

Yes obviously. They classify all sorts of documents for different reasons and different lengths of time. For example. Would D-Day invasion documents still need to be classified?

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maineman

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EDC4ALL! » 25 Jan 2023, 11:42 am » wrote: Yes obviously. They classify all sorts of documents for different reasons and different lengths of time. For example. Would D-Day invasion documents still need to be classified?
D-Day invasion documents are declassified.  In fact, D-Day documents were NEVER classified to begin with for the mere fact that the entire system of document classification did not even exist until the Truman administration.  

But, in today's world, let's say there was a document that, just for the sake of this argument, contained a list of all of the CIA's embedded sleeper agents within the Soviet government.  That document would undoubtedly be classified TS (SCI).  Now...if some, soon-to-be-ex-president were to declare that such a document were magically "declassified" because he happened to THINK about declassifying it, and then, as his successor was being inaugurated,  he took said "declassified" document to his private residence and, let's say, shared it with a Russian oligarch who he had invited to dinner to discuss a new office complex he was hoping to build in Moscow and with which he needed the oligarch's assistance with financing.  

Do YOU feel that, because the document had been "declassified" by the former president, that sharing it with the oligarch would NOT be a violation of the Espionage Act?  Y/N?
 
 

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Monderegal

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maineman » 25 Jan 2023, 1:34 pm » wrote: D-Day invasion documents are declassified.  In fact, D-Day documents were NEVER classified to begin with for the mere fact that the entire system of document classification did not even exist until the Truman administration.  

But, in today's world, let's say there was a document that, just for the sake of this argument, contained a list of all of the CIA's embedded sleeper agents within the Soviet government.  That document would undoubtedly be classified TS (SCI).  Now...if some, soon-to-be-ex-president were to declare that such a document were magically "declassified" because he happened to THINK about declassifying it, and then, as his successor was being inaugurated,  he took said "declassified" document to his private residence and, let's say, shared it with a Russian oligarch who he had invited to dinner to discuss a new office complex he was hoping to build in Moscow and with which he needed the oligarch's assistance with financing.  

Do YOU feel that, because the document had been "declassified" by the former president, that sharing it with the oligarch would NOT be a violation of the Espionage Act?  Y/N?

Well that is the difference between the ethical and the legal. It's also the large reason why Trump was such a bad president. Legally, he could probably make the argument that he could do just that as POTUS. The President has the right to declassify and Trump could share that information. From what I understand this has been the type of legal behavior that Trump has worked under for decades.

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maineman

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Monderegal » 25 Jan 2023, 1:43 pm » wrote: Well that is the difference between the ethical and the legal. It's also the large reason why Trump was such a bad president. Legally, he could probably make the argument that he could do just that as POTUS. The President has the right to declassify and Trump could share that information. From what I understand this has been the type of legal behavior that Trump has worked under for decades.
Well... I would argue that the Espionage Act was written before the practice of document classification was even invented.  The classification of the document is irrelevant.  The only deciding factor is whether or not divulging the information contained IN the document  could be used for the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation.  Therefore... Trump, as president, might very well have been legally capable of "declassifying" any document, but Trump the former president and now private citizen can NOT divulge information that could hurt the United States or help another country, regardless of whether or not that document was technically classified or not.
 
 

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Monderegal

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maineman » 25 Jan 2023, 1:51 pm » wrote: Well... I would argue that the Espionage Act was written before the practice of document classification was even invented.  The classification of the document is irrelevant.  The only deciding factor is whether or not divulging the information contained IN the document  could be used for the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation.  Therefore... Trump, as president, might very well have been legally capable of "declassifying" any document, but Trump the former president and now private citizen can NOT divulge information that could hurt the United States or help another country, regardless of whether or not that document was technically classified or not.
Well I would like to mention I'm not defending the behavior. If Trump declassified a document as President and shared that information with an adversary he might have legal justification. That's not to say the behavior would be atrocious, If he shared a "classified" document as a private citizen things would be different. He would not be in the capacity to declassify it. Therefore you could probably apply the espionage act. I would like to note that comes from a rudimentary understanding of the classification system and the espionage act. From that understanding though, that would be my best guess. You could also probably bring in corruption investigations if he shared classified information for a personal economic gain.
 
 

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maineman

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Monderegal » 25 Jan 2023, 2:03 pm » wrote: Well I would like to mention I'm not defending the behavior. If Trump declassified a document as President and shared that information with an adversary he might have legal justification. That's not to say the behavior would be atrocious, If he shared a "classified" document as a private citizen things would be different. He would not be in the capacity to declassify it. Therefore you could probably apply the espionage act. I would like to note that comes from a rudimentary understanding of the classification system and the espionage act. From that understanding though, that would be my best guess. You could also probably bring in corruption investigations if he shared classified information for a personal economic gain.
It is my assertion that the nature of information that can cause harm to the United States is not dependent upon classification.  He might be legally capable, as President, to declassify something, but, as a former President he has no right to allow any information to be used to harm the US or to help another country.
 
 
Last edited by maineman on 25 Jan 2023, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Monderegal

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maineman » 25 Jan 2023, 3:01 pm » wrote: It is my assertion that the nature of information that can cause harm to the United States is not dependent upon classification.  He might be legally capable, as President, to declassify something, but, as a former President he has not right to allow any information to be used to harm the US or to help another country.

If the information is declassified, you could probably share it with anyone you want. That's the rub in my understanding. 

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maineman

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Monderegal » 25 Jan 2023, 3:05 pm » wrote: If the information is declassified, you could probably share it with anyone you want. That's the rub in my understanding.
that's incorrect.  As I said, the Espionage Act doesn't even MENTION classification.  It only forbids the disclosure of information that could harm the US.  Clearly, disclosing a list of US foreign agents who were moles inside the Russian government would -  WITHOUT QUESTION - harm the US.

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nuckin futz

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maineman » 24 Jan 2023, 8:07 pm » wrote: for folks who eschew actual arguments and prefer to embrace catty, substance-free insults, I really don't want to waste any of MY time or cause them to waste any of theirs.  You are just as fluffy and devoid of any modicum of seriousness here as you were/are on the dot org site.  disappointing, to be sure, but certainly not a surprise.
Who was he on dot.org?
:roll:  

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Monderegal

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maineman » 25 Jan 2023, 3:09 pm » wrote: that's incorrect.  As I said, the Espionage Act doesn't even MENTION classification.  It only forbids the disclosure of information that could harm the US.  Clearly, disclosing a list of US foreign agents who were moles inside the Russian government would -  WITHOUT QUESTION - harm the US.

I guess the real point would be if the President of the United States falls under the espionage act. Presidents are traditionally given a lot of leeway when it comes to which actions they can and cannot take. That would be the assumption in the argument that I'm making. Plus I'm also assuming that declassified information is part of the open record. 

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Monderegal

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maineman » 25 Jan 2023, 3:09 pm » wrote: that's incorrect.  As I said, the Espionage Act doesn't even MENTION classification.  It only forbids the disclosure of information that could harm the US.  Clearly, disclosing a list of US foreign agents who were moles inside the Russian government would -  WITHOUT QUESTION - harm the US.

I read up on that a little and saw what your argument was. Certainly, Trump could probably be prosecuted on a violation if they proved criminal intent which would be highly visible in the example you provided. I didn't do the homework on my answer.  

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Monderegal

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Just to add, the level of criminal intent would need to be measured under the espionage act. Certainly, something like disclosing every spy in Russia for a real estate project would fall under that jurisdiction. Also, corruption laws would probably also apply in a scenario such as the one you provide. Still, the classification argument could probably be used as a defense for such an example.

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Lincoln Nebraska

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maineman » 24 Jan 2023, 6:08 pm » wrote: I know all about them.  I have quite literally wrapped my arms around a nuclear weapon
Talking about explosives, not your lips & boyfriend.