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Blue Devil

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AnnoyedLiberall » 01 Apr 2021, 1:11 pm » wrote: I have already said I don't think Chauvin intended to kill him.
Also, the charges don't need intent.
It's willful disregard.
Intent to murder?  No.  There are elements of the crimes with which Chauvin is charged that do involve intent.  

If I’m the prosecutor, I’m focusing on the manslaughter charge.  

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Annoyed Liberall

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Hot Little Twist
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FOS » 02 Apr 2021, 3:08 pm » wrote: one funny aspect of this case it that it helps the defense that the crowd was heckling the police. This meant that even if there was some official behavior the police should do...the fact that the environment was unsafe would interfere with their ability to do so. Maybe if the crowd was not causing problems, it would be easier for the police to start doing chest compressions, for example...and easier for the police to focus on the state of health of the suspect.
 
There were 4 cops there, and like maybe 15 people.
It certainly wasn't an unruly mob.
They were yelling, yes.
But cops are supposed to be trained to handle themselves in chaotic situations.
Are you saying these 4 cops can't do 2 things at once?

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Annoyed Liberall

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Hot Little Twist
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Blue Devil » 02 Apr 2021, 3:10 pm » wrote: Intent to murder?  No.  There are elements of the crimes with which Chauvin is charged that do involve intent.  

If I’m the prosecutor, I’m focusing on the manslaughter charge.  
I have to agree with that.

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FOS

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AnnoyedLiberall » 02 Apr 2021, 3:18 pm » wrote: There were 4 cops there, and like maybe 15 people.
It certainly wasn't an unruly mob.
They were yelling, yes.
But cops are supposed to be trained to handle themselves in chaotic situations.
Are you saying these 4 cops can't do 2 things at once?

in a potentially unsafe environment, of course they have to focus on the mob. You might think police are infallible superhuman gods, but...wait a second...

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Bidennextpresident

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Defense looked bad today. Struggled to refute expert witnesses that Chauvin was not justified keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for over 9 minutes.

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Annoyed Liberall

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FOS » 02 Apr 2021, 3:19 pm » wrote: in a potentially unsafe environment, of course they have to focus on the mob. You might think police are infallible superhuman gods, but...wait a second...
No, I don't.
But I do hold them to a higher standard.
They are trained to deal with these situations.
Also, don't you think they would have called for more officers if they thought the 'mob' was a threat?

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Annoyed Liberall

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Bidennextpresident » 02 Apr 2021, 3:31 pm » wrote: Defense looked bad today. Struggled to refute expert witnesses that Chauvin was not justified keeping his knee on Floyd's neck for over 9 minutes.
I kept getting interrupted today.
I will rewatch all of the testimony tonight.

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Bidennextpresident

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AnnoyedLiberall » 02 Apr 2021, 3:41 pm » wrote: No, I don't.
But I do hold them to a higher standard.
They are trained to deal with these situations.
Also, don't you think they would have called for more officers if they thought the 'mob' was a threat?
Cops do their jobs in public. Defense whining about the crowd is self defeating. Would make the case that Chauvin was incompetent.

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FOS

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AnnoyedLiberall » 02 Apr 2021, 3:41 pm » wrote: No, I don't.
But I do hold them to a higher standard.
They are trained to deal with these situations.
Also, don't you think they would have called for more officers if they thought the 'mob' was a threat?

it was a cause of concern for the arrival of medics, and potentially why they were delayed. Not the situation may not have been deemed severe enough to call in the national guard, but it was bad enough to cause distractions and delays.

police are not given 8 years of training. I think your standard is probably too high, and is probably inspired by watching fictions on TV.

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Abatjour

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BlueDevil » 02 Apr 2021, 3:10 pm » wrote: Intent to murder?  No.
I can respect that. Nonetheless the facts of the case show that Chauvin did exactly intend to murder him. Likely for months,  too. Yes. When you consider how he potentially had some workplace-related hatred toward Floyd.

Even the Leiutenant said himself, that he's never been trained to kneel on someone's neck and all officers are expected to be "continually reassessing" the need for force. The video shows that Chauvin wanted no parts of reassessing anything about the lethal force he was applying.
 
 
 
Last edited by Abatjour on 02 Apr 2021, 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Zeets2

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AnnoyedLiberall » 02 Apr 2021, 2:11 pm » wrote: I am stating facts.
You just don't like them.
What have I said that's not a fact?
Sorry, but it's certainly not a fact that Chauvin was out to "punish" Floyd.  That's your opinion, and it's not supported by any factual evidence.  You then make the claim that it was "obvious" that Floyd WOULD have gotten into the police car, despite the efforts of 3 policemen who were unable to force him in.  And despite what you claim, the "smirk" you saw on Chauvin's face DOES NOT "say it all".  Facial expressions are NOT permissible as factual evidence of a crime, thank God!  Furthermore, you offered the opinion that the cops had the equipment out to hog-tie him, wondering why that wasn't used.  The fact is that hog-tying a suspect is not permitted under the MN Police Guidelines, and then speculate that the police "had other options", and that the police made "bad choices" which have consequences.  Again, those are opinions that I don't believe you're qualified to make.  Beyond that, you made the error of stating that counterfeiting is nothing but a misdemeanor, which is completely false.

You get the idea, and you should know that I have no problem with you stating your opinions.  But if you're going to chastise others like Buffalo for providing HIS opinions, then take full authority on whether or not you'll allow his opinion "to stand" until you eventually throw him off the thread, I see that as being disingenuous, and your bias on the case doesn't appear to be obvious to you.
 

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Bidennextpresident

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AnnoyedLiberall » 02 Apr 2021, 3:42 pm » wrote: I kept getting interrupted today.
I will rewatch all of the testimony tonight.
A Minneapolis homicide detective has described Derek Chauvin’s decision to press his knee into George Floyd’s neck for more than nine minutes as a totally unnecessary use of “deadly force”. Lt Richard Zimmerman, who leads the Minneapolis homicide department, said in testimony on Friday that in four decades as a police officer he had never been trained to place a knee on someone’s neck as a means of restraining them during an arrest.“If your knee is on a person’s neck, that can kill them,” he said.

Detective says Chauvin knee on neck a 'totally unnecessary' use of deadly force | George Floyd | The Guardian

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Abatjour

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Zeets2 » 02 Apr 2021, 2:03 pm » wrote: There's nothing to be done about it, other than not to make the claim that you're solely interested in discussing the FACTS of the case 
Facts? You mean, like how Chauvin and Floyd were co-workers? And therefore had a personal relationship?

Did you take this jaded view in any cases where police officers became enemies due to OJT issues? Did you allow their private relationship impact how we treated their professional behavior?? Yes, I would bet you did! Oh, but now, there is no way possible that Chauvin's personal relationship with Floyd via the workplace they shared, had annnnnnny impact on the way Chauvin approached Floyd when he saw his vehicle.

I'll even go as far as to say, since the nature of their jobs mean they were likely the last ones to leave their workplace each night when they worked together; Chauvin likely knew it was Floyd as he approached a familiar looking vehicle... which explains why Chauvin had such peculiar behavior as soon as he opened the door and saw Floyd.
 
 

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FOS

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Abatjour » 02 Apr 2021, 3:54 pm » wrote: Facts? You mean, like how Chauvin and Floyd were co-workers? And therefore had a personal relationship?

Did you take this jaded view in any cases where police officers became enemies due to OJT issues? Did you allow their private relationship impact how we treated their professional behavior?? Yes, I would bet you did! Oh, but now, there is no way possible that Chauvin's personal relationship with Floyd via the workplace they shared, had annnnnnny impact on the way Chauvin approached Floyd when he saw his vehicle.

I'll even go as far as to say, since the nature of their jobs mean they were likely the last ones to leave their workplace each night when they worked together; Chauvin likely knew it was Floyd as he approached a familiar looking vehicle... which explains why Chauvin had such peculiar behavior as soon as he opened the door and saw Floyd.

none of this is relevant to the fact that a suspect resisting arrest has to be subdued. Thats what Chauvin did. Chauvin did not force Floyd to resist.

Trying to speculate about potential motives and state of mind is exactly what one does when they dont have any actual evidence of wrongdoing.

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Ike Bana

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Neo » 02 Apr 2021, 12:08 pm » wrote: Chauvin effected an arrest on Floyd and his actions were in line with completing that task.
Apparently not...
An emotional week of testimony in the trial of Derek Chauvin concluded Friday with Lt. Richard Zimmerman, the most senior officer in the Minneapolis Police Department, rejecting the former officer’s use of force against George Floyd, calling it “uncalled for” and “totally unnecessary.” Zimmerman testified that once someone is handcuffed, “they are not a threat to you at that point” and the amount of force should be immediately reduced. “If your knee is on a person’s neck, that could kill him,” he testified.
Zimmerman also testified that what he saw on the video evidence was "not how he (Chauvin) was trained.

So now, after having stated that he knows better than licensed physicians and medical examiner's what the cause of death should be on 500,000+ death certificates.  Since he knows better than the chief medical examiner what killed George Floyd.  Since he knows better than 60 courts, 8 appellate courts, the Supreme Court, DHS Cybersecurity, and election officials of both parties, that the election was a fraud...

Neo is obvious gonna know better than the number one officer in the department in terms of seniority,, and the head of the Minneapolis PD Homicide Unit what the protocol and training in the use of deadly force in the Minneapolis PD better than Lt. Zimmerman.

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FOS

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IkeBana » 02 Apr 2021, 4:45 pm » wrote: Apparently not...

Zimmerman also testified that what he saw on the video evidence was "not how he (Chauvin) was trained.

So now, after having stated that he knows better than licensed physicians and medical examiner's what the cause of death should be on 500,000+ death certificates.  Since he knows better than the chief medical examiner what killed George Floyd.  Since he knows better than 60 courts, 8 appellate courts, the Supreme Court, DHS Cybersecurity, and election officials of both parties, that the election was a fraud...

Neo is obvious gonna know better than the number one officer in the department in terms of seniority,, and the head of the Minneapolis PD Homicide Unit what the protocol and training in the use of deadly force in the Minneapolis PD better than Lt. Zimmerman.

more irrelevant appeals to credentialism.

the truth is, these people may be politically motivated in such a polarizing case and even if they know they are misrepresenting the truth, they will do it anyway because the 'ends justify the means'.

the claims they are making are not supported by the facts on the ground. If chauvin was doing something horrible, and if it resulted in floyds death, there would be evidence of trauma in the neck. there wasnt.

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Abatjour

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FOS » 02 Apr 2021, 4:36 pm » wrote: none of this is relevant to the fact that a suspect resisting arrest has to be subdued.
Nope. If Chauvin has used the workplace they share, to harbor ill-will toward Floyd? It totally matters.
And there is no, speculation, that this a unique case ---once it included coworkers who were personally acquainted in their workplace.
 

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Ike Bana

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FOS » 02 Apr 2021, 4:36 pm » wrote: none of this is relevant to the fact that a suspect resisting arrest has to be subdued. Thats what Chauvin did. Chauvin did not force Floyd to resist.
Not according to Lt. Richard Zimmerman,, the number two officer on the Minneapolis PD, behind only the chief.  He stated in his testimony that Chauvin maintained his knee on the subject's neck after Floyd had been handcuffed, taken down and was no longer resisting.
 
 

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Bidennextpresident

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IkeBana » 02 Apr 2021, 4:49 pm » wrote: Not according to Lt. Richard Zimmerman,, the number two officer on the Minneapolis PD, behind only the chief.  He stated in his testimony that Chauvin maintained his knee on the subject's neck after Floyd had been handcuffed, taken down and was no longer resisting.

Chauvin knew Floyd was limp and subdued and continued the knee to the neck.

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Ike Bana

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Bidennextpresident » 02 Apr 2021, 4:54 pm » wrote: Chauvin knew Floyd was limp and subdued and continued the knee to the neck.
If I can be so bold...we already know that Chauvin was enjoying it and nobody was gonna make him stop.  What's important is that the case being made by the defense was crushed into dust today by the testimony of Lt. Richard Zimmerman.  Chauvin exercised lethal force when none was necessary and he violated the department's lethal force protocols.
 
 
 

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