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LibDave

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Intended for discussions needed and often misunderstood in regards to politics, geopolitics, economics, defense, or science (or anything of interest).

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FOS

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Wow. Thats broad lol

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LibDave

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Work and Unemployment

I once had a neighbor tell me there was no more work left to do on his yard. I kind of chuckled. Was there really NOTHING he could do to further improve his yard? Of course not. There is ALWAYS something more you can do. More fertilizer, flowers, a new pool, or even an amusement park addition as was the case for Michael Jackson. I'm sure replacing all the brick with gold bars would also be an improvement. You get the point.

There is no limit to the amount of work to be done. From your yard to space stations there is always SOME work which could be done. Labor is limited. Time is limited. Materials are limited. Work is not. Perhaps more important, motivation is limited. Limited by your perceived value of the product of your labor. It is human nature to balance the cost in labor with the value of what you receive in return. So what he was really saying was any further improvements to my yard are not worth further effort. It is this perceived value and the cost in labor balance which determines the work to be done.
 
 
 

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LibDave

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Employment

So what causes employment. With an understanding of the limitless availability of work it becomes clear Employment is caused by one thing.... NEED or WANT. It is the motivation to work which any viable system intent on increasing the Standard of Living for its people must strive to increase.
 

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FOS

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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 4:06 pm » wrote: Work and Unemployment

I once had a neighbor tell me there was no more work left to do on his yard. I kind of chuckled. Was there really NOTHING he could do to further improve his yard? Of course not. There is ALWAYS something more you can do. More fertilizer, flowers, a new pool, or even an amusement park addition as was the case for Michael Jackson. I'm sure replacing all the brick with gold bars would also be an improvement. You get the point.

There is no limit to the amount of work to be done. From your yard to space stations there is always SOME work which could be done. Labor is limited. Time is limited. Materials are limited. Work is not. Perhaps more important, motivation is limited. Limited by your perceived value of the product of your labor. It is human nature to balance the cost in labor with the value of what you receive in return. So what he was really saying was any further improvements to my yard are not worth further effort. It is this perceived value and the cost in labor balance which determines the work to be done.
Actually no I don't really get it. What makes you think he wants an amusement park in his yard? Or gold bricks? And what would be the objective value of such a thing?

maybe he likes the yard as it is. In fact maybe he is used to it and comfortable with it.. 

Sometimes leisure really is more valuable than work. 

Sorry I kinda feel the need to question this premise. There is not always work to do. 

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LibDave

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The American Idea

At the heart of the American Idea is the Right to Property. As Jefferson paraphrased, if someone whittles a stick into an arrow with his own labor his right to that arrow and all the wealth entailed is sacrosanct. If he uses his arrow and his skill at hunting to fell wild game it too becomes the product of his labor and he may rightfully use it to feed his family or barter in free trade for something he deems of more value.

This anecdote was proffered by Jefferson to explain the bedrock of our system. This applies to all product of one's labor. Whether we trade our labor product for an agreed upon wage or sell such product directly. Under the American Idea no one else has the right to object or lay claim to the proceeds. Michael Jordan made the decision to apply his labor to developing the skills required to place a ball through a hoop (and all the other talents necessary to play basketball). At some point it turned out an owner of a basketball team thought it in his own interests to pay a freely agreed upon wage to Michael in exchange for his talents on the court. Now I consider $26 Million/year to earn for playing basketball astounding. Truth be told I am jealous as hell and it is only human nature to want someone to force Michael to hand over the product of his labor to me. I might even be willing to share in the theft of his wealth. But I and others have NO RIGHT to decide what is a fair price to pay for Michael's talents. Nor does he have any say in what I agree to receive in return for my labor. This is the American Idea. It is capitalism in its truest form.

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LibDave

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FOS » 29 Dec 2021, 4:22 pm » wrote: Actually no I don't really get it. What makes you think he wants an amusement park in his yard? Or gold bricks? And what would be the objective value of such a thing?

maybe he likes the yard as it is. In fact maybe he is used to it and comfortable with it.. 

Sometimes leisure really is more valuable than work. 

Sorry I kinda feel the need to question this premise. There is not always work to do.
That is precisely my point.  It isn't that no work exists.  It is his decision that any further work would not be worth the cost in leisure.  In other words, work is limitless but the cost in one's labor often at times exceeds the value of what it would result in.  At that point you should stop work and enjoy the fruits of your labor.  Sit back in leisure and enjoy your yard.

So unemployment is in essence a situation where your labor isn't worth what you receive in return.  At that point you decide not to work.  It isn't that there is no work which could be done.
Last edited by LibDave on 29 Dec 2021, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FOS

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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 4:45 pm » wrote: That is precisely my point.  It isn't that no work exists.  It is his decision that any further work would not be worth the cost in leisure.  In other words, work is limitless but the cost in one's labor often at times exceeds the value of what it would result in.  At that point you should stop work and enjoy the fruits of your labor.  Sit back in leisure and enjoy your yard.
So productive work has a limit. 

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LibDave

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FOS » 29 Dec 2021, 4:47 pm » wrote: So productive work has a limit.
If by productive work you mean the product of the work is worth less than the labor to produce it then yes.  For the most part all work has SOME value.  It just might not be worth my time.  I could always be doing something else worth more to me.  Even if that is just leisure around my pool.  But it might also be more beneficial for me to learn how to do heart surgery.  What is limited is the value of what I work to produce versus the cost in my effort to produce it.  Always work to be done, it is up to me to decide what work SHOULD best be done if any.

If I already have everything I want provided to me by whatever means and I decide the most valuable thing to me I could do is relax in leisure that is what I will and should do. 

My time on this Earth is limited as are my skills.  I must decide how best to use these limited resources for my benefit as I perceive it to be.  But the list of possible work I could attempt is limitless.  The point is, when someone states unemployment is high because there are no jobs available really has no basis.  What unemployment really means is no work is available which is worth the effort, paycheck, and buying power it would result in.
 

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SJConspirator

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FOS » 29 Dec 2021, 4:22 pm » wrote: Actually no I don't really get it. What makes you think he wants an amusement park in his yard? Or gold bricks? And what would be the objective value of such a thing?

maybe he likes the yard as it is. In fact maybe he is used to it and comfortable with it.. 

Sometimes leisure really is more valuable than work. 

Sorry I kinda feel the need to question this premise. There is not always work to do.

I used to think having a work ethic was ethical.  Morally righteous.

Now in the age of mass automation it's mostly just stupid.

The exception is work you love.  Mixing substrates and pasteurized straw for my mushroom farming is labor intensive but I freaking love doing it

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SJConspirator » 29 Dec 2021, 5:07 pm » wrote: I used to think having a work ethic was ethical.  Morally righteous.

Now in the age of mass automation it's mostly just stupid.

The exception is work you love.  Mixing substrates and pasteurized straw for my mushroom farming is labor intensive but I freaking love doing it
Ethical work is that which advances your people imo. 

When we lived in homogeneous societies that was anything that was useful to your society. 

Now we don't. It is a hard question to answer which work is good. I don't want to slave for a racial enemy. 
 

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LibDave

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Using Michael Jordan as an example:
Michael used his effort to hone his skills to a truly phenomenal level. As was his inalienable right to do so.

MJ <--> Owner of the Bulls
MJ and the owner of the Bulls entered into a private contract in which the owner agreed to pay him $26M/year to play for the Bulls without government interference. Both parties thought they would benefit from the exchange of labor (and they were right).

Owner <--> Fans
The owner risked this money paid to MJ with the prospect of increased revenue. He did this partly due to the prospect of increased ticket sales and cost of admission to the Bulls games. The fans willingly and freely agreed the cost of admission was well worth the exchange of their wealth to watch the spectacle. No one was forced to buy tickets so obviously all involved were happy with the exchange.

Owner <--> advertisers
Due to increased viewership advertisers also began paying more to air their commercials during Bulls games. They willingly did so as they perceived the best use of their resources (i.e. $) was to advertise their products in an effort to increase sales and prices of their own products. All freely agreed without government interference. Television viewers thought it a good use of their time to watch these advertisements if it meant getting to see the game.

It is not up to me to object to the contracts and compensations agreed upon. It isn't my labor being expended by Michael on the court and I'm not the one paying him $26M. Socialists claim this is unfair for Michael to earn so much more than the average Joe. This flies in direct contradiction to the American Idea. We all are equal in the regard we have the right to property and the product which results from our labor through free and private contracts without government interference. It is no one else's business to object or share in the proceeds. Our system isn't based on equal pay. It is based on equal opportunity.

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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 5:25 pm » wrote: Using Michael Jordan as an example:
Michael used his effort to hone his skills to a truly phenomenal level. As was his inalienable right to do so.

MJ <--> Owner of the Bulls
MJ and the owner of the Bulls entered into a private contract in which the owner agreed to pay him $26M/year to play for the Bulls without government interference. Both parties thought they would benefit from the exchange of labor (and they were right).

Owner <--> Fans
The owner risked this money paid to MJ with the prospect of increased revenue. He did this partly due to the prospect of increased ticket sales and cost of admission to the Bulls games. The fans willingly and freely agreed the cost of admission was well worth the exchange of their wealth to watch the spectacle. No one was forced to buy tickets so obviously all involved were happy with the exchange.

Owner <--> advertisers
Due to increased viewership advertisers also began paying more to air their commercials during Bulls games. They willingly did so as they perceived the best use of their resources (i.e. $) was to advertise their products in an effort to increase sales and prices of their own products. All freely agreed without government interference. Television viewers thought it a good use of their time to watch these advertisements if it meant getting to see the game.

It is not up to me to object to the contracts and compensations agreed upon. It isn't my labor being expended by Michael on the court and I'm not the one paying him $26M. Socialists claim this is unfair for Michael to earn so much more than the average Joe. This flies in direct contradiction to the American Idea. We all are equal in the regard we have the right to property and the product which results from our labor through free and private contracts without government interference. It is no one else's business to object or share in the proceeds. Our system isn't based on equal pay. It is based on equal opportunity.



Playing basketball is not work.. its play.  Hence the phrase "play basketball"

Sports is a form of entertainment.  Pro Athletes are like actors and musicians in a sense.. they are paid to entertain.

That is not work.  Working is providing goods or services, creating commodities 

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Everyone is free to make their own decisions on how best to go through life. If the Bulls Owner had been wrong he would have lost a lot of his wealth. He was the one risking his wealth and it was he who should pay the consequences or reap the benefits.

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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 5:25 pm » wrote: Using Michael Jordan as an example:
Michael used his effort to hone his skills to a truly phenomenal level. As was his inalienable right to do so.

MJ <--> Owner of the Bulls
MJ and the owner of the Bulls entered into a private contract in which the owner agreed to pay him $26M/year to play for the Bulls without government interference. Both parties thought they would benefit from the exchange of labor (and they were right).

Owner <--> Fans
The owner risked this money paid to MJ with the prospect of increased revenue. He did this partly due to the prospect of increased ticket sales and cost of admission to the Bulls games. The fans willingly and freely agreed the cost of admission was well worth the exchange of their wealth to watch the spectacle. No one was forced to buy tickets so obviously all involved were happy with the exchange.

Owner <--> advertisers
Due to increased viewership advertisers also began paying more to air their commercials during Bulls games. They willingly did so as they perceived the best use of their resources (i.e. $) was to advertise their products in an effort to increase sales and prices of their own products. All freely agreed without government interference. Television viewers thought it a good use of their time to watch these advertisements if it meant getting to see the game.

It is not up to me to object to the contracts and compensations agreed upon. It isn't my labor being expended by Michael on the court and I'm not the one paying him $26M. Socialists claim this is unfair for Michael to earn so much more than the average Joe. This flies in direct contradiction to the American Idea. We all are equal in the regard we have the right to property and the product which results from our labor through free and private contracts without government interference. It is no one else's business to object or share in the proceeds. Our system isn't based on equal pay. It is based on equal opportunity.
I have not experienced equal opportunity in my lifetime.
There has ALWAYS been some type of interference.
Government quotas, unions, nepotism, etc.

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LibDave

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SJConspirator » 29 Dec 2021, 5:28 pm » wrote: Playing basketball is not work.. its play.  Hence the phrase "play basketball"

Sports is a form of entertainment.  Pro Athletes are like actors and musicians in a sense.. they are paid to entertain.

That is not work.  Working is providing goods or services, creating commodities
You're free not to watch and no one is forcing you to attend the games and buy a ticket.  Obviously he is producing something.  He is producing a spectacle many people valued watching.

I might even consider paying you for the spectacle of watching what you do with mushrooms.

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DeezerShoove » 29 Dec 2021, 5:32 pm » wrote: I have not experienced equal opportunity in my lifetime.
There has ALWAYS been some type of interference.
Government quotas, unions, nepotism, etc.
It is important to understand, this interference has little to nothing to do with capitalism or the American Idea.  These are contemporary aspects of Democratic Socialism and/or antitrust issues beyond the scope of capitalism and the intent of our Founding Fathers under the auspices of the US Constitution.
 

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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 5:36 pm » wrote: It is important to understand, this interference has little to nothing to do with capitalism or the American Idea.  These are contemporary aspects of Democratic Socialism and/or antitrust issues beyond the scope of capitalism and the intent of our Founding Fathers under the auspices of the US Constitution.
I daresay nepotism, for one, has nothing to do with ANY political system ever invented.
It just is...

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LibDave » 29 Dec 2021, 5:30 pm » wrote: Everyone is free to make their own decisions on how best to go through life. If the Bulls Owner had been wrong he would have lost a lot of his wealth. He was the one risking his wealth and it was he who should pay the consequences or reap the benefits.
Everyone is free to have an opinion but some of them are stupid.

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DeezerShoove » 29 Dec 2021, 5:39 pm » wrote: I daresay nepotism, for one, has nothing to do with ANY political system ever invented.
It just is...
You can count on me to always show nepotism. It's biology...which transcends politics.

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